RMS is Richard M Stallman (see [Richard Stallman]), a famous programmer in the [GNU]/[FSF] scene, but not enthusiastic about Tcl. (See [Who says Tcl sucks...]). I think RMS is a grand guy. I think his opinion is based on experience with a very early version of Tcl. Richard tends to consider things in terms of their relationship to GNU, and to his own concept of Free Software as a philosophical imperative. Tcl has no particular relationship to GNU, so Richard probably does not think about it much at all. ''';^)''' [AMG]: I don't know what's going on with this page, but it's beyond weird and needs to stop. Earlier today an edit was made including a link to http://www.majortek.com/ which is a "parked" domain, meaning that the edit was done without actually checking the link. What purpose does it serve? This is not responsible editing. [PYK]: Weird is as weird does. [AMG]: I'm not disagreeing that he's weird, I'm questioning the fact that you're posting invalid links, but now I'm also questioning why you feel the need to say any of this about RMS on the Tcler's Wiki. What does this have to do with Tcl? [PL]: Maybe it's time to put this page up for deletion. It's not as if information about RMS is essential to the Tcl programmer. [RLE]: What seems to be going on is either: 1) someone's masquerading as pyk/pooryorick 2) pooryorick's gone mad; I don't have enough evidence to decide between the two. But in any case it is a very concerted attempt at wiki spam by someone. Maybe an IP block of 174.52.22.202, which is where the character that made the spam edits is showing as arriving from. [PYK]: I'm not mad, but Stallman might be :) The statements about Stallman above are presented in a zany way, but are basically factual. Anyone landing on this page might be here because they're interested in learning a bit about the topic of this page, i.e., RMS. Rather than be yet-another-dry-Wikipedia article, this page might as well paint him from an alternative perspective, since 1) he did, after all, pen [http://www.vanderburg.org/OldPages/Tcl/war/0000.html%|%Why You Should Not use Tcl], and 2) the man continuously strives to shock people out of their habitual and uncritical mindsets. Why else would he eat toe jam on camera? Once again, it's important to remember that RMS would happily concede every one of the points I've made. That's just who he is. That's RMS. [PL]: It may be intended as "zanyness" but that's not how it comes across, unfortunately. We're concerned that the things you put here paints Tclers in a very bad light as childish people who bear a grudge against Stallman for dissing Tcl sometime back in the middle ages. This in turn invites other people to add childish things to other pages on this wiki, which in the long run will damage it. The tone on this wiki is one of maturity and we need to keep it that way lest this wiki devolve into another one of the rant-and-feud wikis that no one cares about or can use. [PYK]: If you think the tone is wrong, the wiki certainly welcomes you to jump in and improve it! [PL]: ''How'', exactly, could we do that, apart from doing what we've already have been trying to do? Or more to the point: why are you making it your business to stop us from improving the tone? Maybe you can be reasoned with, maybe not. I'll try some more, at least. Some may be worried about dead links, and you on the other hand seem to think that it's OK to write whatever and however as long as there is a factual basis for it. The way I see it, neither of those points matter very much. What matters most is the word picture you're painting. You're basically saying "here on the Tcler's wiki it's ok to use defamatory language about people you don't like, go ahead and try it: isn't that (random Tcler) guy a bit of a tool? go on, delete his boring code and write that he's eating his boogers instead". (Note that I'm ''not'' saying that you yourself are using defamatory language: as has already been stated, your statements are basically true -- the point is that ''looks like it'': very few are going to click trough, scroll down a few pages and see that, yes, it's actually true about the semi-nude boys. Most readers will simply assume that you're making it all up and are linking to malware sites with this text as a bait.) Once that rot sets in, it spreads quickly and is very hard to stop (I've seen it on other wikis all the way back to when the first wikis began to appear). The only way to avoid it is to maintain language hygiene. Wikipedia may be dry, and this wiki isn't always a barrel of monkeys either, but that's because that's how wikis ''survive''. Those wikis that let go ''will'' be lost. (Also, you're being a bit hypocritical here: there is a ''lot'' of room between being "dry" and imitating defamatory language.) There's absolutely nothing to stop you from posting this material on your own pages or blogs, but you shouldn't be adding it here. It's off topic for this wiki, counter to the tone and atmosphere of it, and it will in the long run turn out to be poisonous for it. I find it very curious that you on one hand seem dedicated to improving the wiki by correcting and rearranging the content, and on the other hand have no qualms about vandalizing it. [RLE]: [PL] I fully agree with your statement above. So, who do we contact about blocking IP address 174.52.22.202 from even accessing the wiki until he learns to behave? [PYK]: It's not vandalism. It's an '''accurate''' portrayal of RMS. And the thing is, he wouldn't even consider any of this defamatory. This page merely reflects the man himself. There are plenty of pages on the Wiki with jocular content, but the main problem here is that what would usually be considered inflammatory troll-bait and vandalism, is '''the norm''' in the world of RMS. It's a topsy-turvy place, and it's what those who find this page are probably seeking to understand. Granted, it could be more balanced, and any other editors of the wiki are always free to provide that balance. In fact, since there's been so much objection to the statements on this page, I think I'll have a go at it shortly. [RLE]: And yet, you continue to ignore [PL]'s point. While it is "accurate", your presentation is childish, and looks, to a casual observer, as nothing more than "anything goes here" and/or vandalism on the wiki. Because of the Broken Windows theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory) this type of childish looking, immature, anything goes, material has a very very bad habit of spreading elsewhere. And before we know it, the Tcl'ers wiki is overrun by all kinds of childish trolls just doing anything they damn well please anywhere, and once that happens, all hope is lost to recover the original professionalism of the wiki. So please, just stop it. [PL]: (to RLE) I don't think blocking is a very good idea. It's quite easy to go around, and anyway it seems that the Powers That Be dislike doing it. It would be better, I think, to remove this page and the [Richard Stallman] page. It's not like he isn't described fully elsewhere, and his connection to Tcl is tenous anyway. In any case, I'd much rather have PYK on board as a responsible editor than try to exile him (her?) (to PYK) Sure it's vandalism. Again, it doesn't matter if it's accurate or not, or whether you intend it as vandalism. I somewhat agree that your writing reflects RMS himself, but it should reflect him ''somewhere else'', not on this wiki. [RLE]: Fair enough on the blocking, and yes, it is easy to get around. However, deleting the page, while workable, is not a cure, because if PYK is intent on continuing, the page will just keep reappearing each time we delete it. What we have is PYK, after so much editing on the wiki, not all of which I agree with, acting like this is PYK's personal wiki, rather than acting like it is the Tcl'ers community wiki. The root cause is PYK no longer acting like a responsible, mature, community member. But if we want to just delete the page to see if PYK will start acting responsibly again, then we need to just go ahead and delete the page and see what happens. <> Person | Glossary