PS 12Jan2004: I Just created The Tcl'ers Wiki. (note the . in the title).
inspired by a discussion on the chat with stevel, colin, suchenwi, miguel...
In my opinion, the current front page is totally overloaded with links and poorly structured. We need something more concise, something that represents the simplicity and power of Tcl. Something that sells.
I have started by taking what was on the front page and stuffing it, mostly unaltered in sub pages. And I started the page with a 'strong' statement on what Tcl is. And I picked a quote from ESR (maybe slightly out of context, but hey, this is a PR drive.)
In true wiki style, I hope that everyone will contribute and help make the first sub pages better.
Great initiative - we could turn that page and its first sublevel into a static HTML page with tables to get a compact format. Once the contents is ready, that is. -jcw
Tables would be much better than the wiki format for presenting a table of contents, yes. -PS
Three more needed links on the new front page:
I'd expect these links to link to Wiki pages that explain where to find each of these things. Add these, and you get one-stop shopping: newcomers to Tcl can find everything they need on the front page. --WHD
ulis Please, add an How to for the search engine: I never found it -> Bob Techentin found it for me: Searching and bookmarking URLs on the Tcl'ers Wiki.
jcw - Just to keep the juices flowing, I made a first mock-up at [L1 ]. No good, this needs a LOT more work to become useful:
I'll update the mock-up (with real links at some point) once these issues become clearer. Different trials is ok too - just let me know what sort of overall layout you'd like to see...
stevel - Thanks JC - nice work.
Some thoughts and changes
stevel - I've changed the "tag line" a little, to make it easier to read and more "punchy".
One thing I'm not sure about - I'm not comfortable with the word "interesting" (as in "has all the features needed to rapidly create interesting programs in almost any field of application") given that we want to project Tcl as a serious alternative. I've changed it to "serious", but I'm not happy about that either.
Can anyone suggest an alternative - sophisticated? professional? Or perhaps just something like "has all the features needed to rapidly create programs (both large and small) in almost any field of application"
escargo 12 Jan 2004 - Won't there be twelve syntax rules soon? yes, when 8.5 is release - stevel
Also, how about "features need to rapidly create useful programs"? thx - good suggestion IMO - stevel
stevel - I've made a heading that combines Tcl and "radically simple". The only reason it is worth mentioning here is the font used for "radically simple" is "Geeza Pro" - which I reckon describes most of us :-)
The #2 mock-up is now at [L2 ]. To clarify: this is about creating an "index.html" page which will become the default for wiki.tcl.tk (nothing else changes, all existing wiki pages remain as is, also page 0) -jcw
PS 13Jan04 - Nice progress! I'd change the color of the side bar to a friendly gray, to make it easier for your eyes to scan the page. And locate it at the left hand side, which is where most sites keep them. And lets have less 'highlights', or maybe just less, visually, by using a smaller font.
And maybe put the testimonials link right after the ESR quote. It feels out of place in the sidebar.
And I reordered the sidebar slightly, putting news near the top suggests (to me) that things are 'on-the-move' and 'Documentation' is more important than a lot of other things.
stevel re Pascal's points
PS leaving the quote alone has its merits, yes. But testimonials should be rather prominent, if only so visitors are bound to read the word 'testimonials', with all the possitive vibes the word has.
Mock-up #3 now at [L3 ], and #4 at [L4 ] -jcw
SMH 13Jan2004 strikes me as a very good "what is TCL" page, but as the front page to a wiki we should give some prominence to the fact that it's a collaberative effort to which anyone with an interest in the development of TCL applications or TCL itself can contribute.
WJR - 13Jan2004 - Here's an alternative design [L5 ] based on JCW's concept. The nicest feature (IMO) of this design is the 'sidebar' on the right - the various sidebar categories are easily differentiated. Other features include - easier to read sans-serif fonts and use of CSS for presentational elements (making the code easier to maintain).
RS wonders if the front page should describe Tcl as a combination of features (and power) of LISP, C, and Unix shells...
What does this wiki's community want as the purpose of the front page? Is it to tell the community what's new? Is it to attract drive-by visitors? Is it to introduce a new visitor to the wiki? Is it to introduce a new visitor to Tcl? Perhaps once a set of goals have been set, the contents of the front page becomes easier to identify.
stevel - What *I* want is a place where I can point people to give them a gentle overview of what Tcl is about.
Whether that is the front page of the wiki, www.tcl.tk or somewhere else I don't really care. But at the moment Tcl has no such place.
This was discussed on the chat the other night BTW - it came about because of various comments about Tcl's PR being poor. We know we have something good - we just need to communicate that more effectively. It's somewhat ironic that ESR's otherwise derogatory description contained the "radically simple" comment and led to the setting up of this page.
WHD - I agree with Steve. I tell a lot of people about Tcl (Notebook App has users who had never heard of Tcl before they started using it, and Notebook App encourages them to learn it) and there's no really good place to point them. I think both the current front page and jcw's replacement at [L6 ] (at 13 Jan 2004, 7:45 AM PDT) are too large and too busy.
I agree with Will, I'm leaving all mock-up's in place so y'all have something to gawk at, but that first one is (IMHO) the worst. I also agree with others who point out that the front page of this wiki need not necessarily be an advocacy page. -jcw
I think a gentle overview of what Tcl is about is a good idea - I don't know that the front page of this wiki is the place for it though.
It should, however, be some place within one click of either the wiki or the http://www.tcl.tk/ front page though.
Anyone have a good example of a gentle introduction to some other package or language that might serve as a guide?
jcw - Speaking of examples, have a look at http://www.perl.org/
WHD - Yes, http://www.perl.org does exactly the right sort of thing.
As to the comment, "I don't know that the front page of this wiki is the place for it though," I have to ask in response: if not here, then where? The Tcl equivalent to www.perl.org is supposed to be http://www.tcl.tk -- but for good or ill, www.tcl.tk doesn't seem to get a lot of maintenance. On the other hand, anybody in the Tcl community can contribute to wiki.tcl.tk, and it is, de facto the real Tcl developer community web site.
escargo - http://www.perl.org does the right sort of thing, except for the typographical errors.
AM Now that we are at it, what about the home-page at [L7 ]? That seems a bit crowded to me - no offense to the maintainers! But that could also benefit from a redesign, I guess.
escargo I thing the section labelled "Tcl Features" is not really about Tcl features. It might be about example Tcl applications, but that's something entirely different. I kind of like the design, even though it is really busy.
One question about our goals: Has anybody pinned down the audience? You can't evaluate how good the design is until you know that.
WHD - I believe "Tcl Features" == "Featured articles about people who use Tcl."
Regarding the audience: a delightful Tcl/Tk feature is that it repays commensurate effort. Simple things are simple; but uplevel and upvar and trace are there when you discover you need them. I think the Wiki can serve as a delightful introduction to Tcl/Tk and the Tcl/Tk community, but it will similarly need to repay commensurate effort. Things newbies and casual surfers want to know should be clearly marked and accessible from the front page.
As for the rest of us -- the only front page links I've clicked on in ages are "Recent Changes" and "Search". I'm an experience user, and I bypass it regularly.
escargo - I think the "Simple things are simple..." is the message, not a description of an audience. "Newbies and casual surfers" is a description of an audience, perhaps even the target audience.
jcw - Before Pascal's initiative drowns, how about: the wiki is a community resource for "sharing", and www.tcl.tk is a place for "selling"? That way, we can try to get a decent pointer page for newbies and experienced developers alike, and move on?
I've noticed that The Tcl'ers Wiki. page hasn't changed further. Does that mean the current contents is "right", "complete", "accurate"? Who is going to take the lead to fill in categories with actual links? Wouldn't it be better to just run forward a bit, see what comes out, and possibly introduce one or more alternatives along the way?
escargo - Shouldn't there be a prominent link to some kind of FAQ? And if the page is really for newbies, how about a link to a page for sample programs?
David, please feel free to add it. I'm not defining or even arbitrating the contents, just collecting results. Pascal, help! -jcw