Updated 2016-01-03 18:21:07 by dbohdan

On his namesake page PYK made the following offer to the community in response to a comment by APN:
"As I've said before, I'm willing to take my efforts to my own website, if people really would rather I do that."

So, lets take a polling of the community consensus of the community's desire to take PYK up on his offer.

Therefore, the question of this vote:

Should PYK "take [his] efforts to [his] own website" and leave the Tcler's wiki alone?"

Note: At this point, everyone in the community has already formed an opinion of PYK and his editing of the wiki. This page is not meant to be a place for debate nor a place for pleas attempting to sway opinions in one direction or another. It is merely meant to collect the votes of the community members to the question above.

Please edit the page and place your vote below the appropriate section heading below:

Vote YES: I would like PYK to "take [his] efforts to [his] own website" and leave the Tcl'ers wiki alone:  edit

RLE: I vote YES.

PL: I vote YES.

[Anonymous]: I vote YES.

Vote NO: I would like PYK to continue to edit the Tcl'ers wiki:  edit

aprendiz: I vote NO.

MS: I vote NO

Kroc: I vote NO


JJM: I vote NO.

bll: I vote NO.


[wheeldog]: No. If someone makes a contribution (in the literal sense) and you don't like it, either 1) ignore it or 2) state your objections in the discussion. But don't touch the code.

Vote STOP THE IDIOCY: The fighting and page editing/deletions compromise the integrity of this wiki as an authoritative resource and reduce it to babysitting.  edit


Vote PEACE ON EARTH:  edit


Discussion  edit

dbohdan 2015-12-31: The implicit assumption made above is that such matters can and should be decided by popular vote. Personally, I find it far from obvious why this is the case. It is especially questionable to call for a vote right after an attempt to resolve the conflict through violence (use of bots to coerce the other party to give up).

I think what the wiki needs is, ultimately, a bit more of hands-on governance. That would first and foremost include rules for conflict resolution and someone to act as an arbiter who has the final word. (1) Then everyone who agrees to abide by the rules can stay and everyone who disagrees can fork the wiki or otherwise go and post elsewhere.

(1) Now, that I would vote on (even though I'd rather see that person chosen by consensus).

MS 2015-12-31: I like to believe that I am part of this community, have not formed an opinion, and would like to understand RLE's real beef with PYK - in this page, or in another one linked from here. From the description at PYK's page, I tend to believe that RLE is the one who has broken the house rules by removing pages wholesale ... with a robot??? Phrases like "do ... and it [your page] can stay" also show that RLE has a sense of ownership that is completely misplaced. Maybe it is RLE who should open "Curated Tcler's Wiki, by RLE", where he can insure his conditions are always met.

That being said:

  • I do not think we should EVER ask ANYBODY to leave this wiki.
  • I strongly dislike PYK's 'space before a comma' style

Kroc 2015-12-31: I completely agree with MS.

[octavsly] 2015-12-31: @PYK @RLE: grow up and learn to listen. both of you.

APN 2015-12-31: I'm unwilling to even dignify this page with a comment. And am unhappy about being mentioned out of context in the first line of this page. The point of my original comment was that a lot of what PYK writes would in my view be expressed more cogently on its own without editing existing pages and annoying others. I admit that instead of saying "on your own blog" (or whatever it was that I said) I should have said "on its own page" maybe even on this wiki. Certainly I wouldn't want PYK to leave and even if I wanted it so, I would certainly not think I have the right to opine that about _anyone_.

bll 2015-12-31: I voted no, but I agree with APN, I also find this page rude. It is not my place to say what PYK does. I will leave the choice to PYK.

[jrapdx] 2015-12-31: It's hard to understand "kicking someone out" or off these pages. Isn't it supposed to be a shared resource and responsibility? Respecting contributions and avoiding intrusive editing would seem basic to the situation. I concur with the opinions of APN and bll, and endorse the idea of having "polarizing" content on isolated pages. Over many years I've found this wiki to be enormously useful and definitely prefer it remain open, friendly and highly informative.

CliC Wow...just wow. Kicking someone off this island over punctuation? Is it adversely affecting wiki functionality? I'm mostly a lurker, but one thing I always liked about this site was the civility. IMHO I wouldn't generally change someone else's content (if that is what's happening), but barring threats of violence or something I can't justify banishing someone. Maybe I'm not seeing the larger picture?

dzach I too find this page rude, but took the time and read most of the long arguments on PYK's profile page. To my opinion, AMG's position there consolidates what I believe is the essence of the existence of this wiki and the reason why most of us visit it and contribute views and code. Also, in those same discussions one can find reasons that explain, to a certain point, RLE's reaction to PYK's effort to make the wiki conform to a certain style that he favors. Having said that, I believe that the issue here is not whether PYK should be expelled from the wiki, which is indeed wrong, but whether he should refrain from changing other peoples writings and code or not. To that question I vote YES: Please leave other people's style and code as the they wanted it and, please, do comment on anything you find wrong of improper. Self righteousness is a negative attitude and most people have difficulty to tolerate it.

LAM - 2016-01-01 23:36:43

From http://wiki.tcl.tk/0 :

«Since this site is collaboratively-edited, please feel free to to correct typos, edit code pages to improve code (make certain though that your changes are not breaking the code!), ask questions, add comments, and anything else you can think of! If you have pages that you don't want modified, feel free to host those on your own site and just add URLs here to them.»

RKzn 2016-01-02: I read often for some 2 or 3 years, but I have very few edits, so I'll refrain from a "formal" vote. But I like TCL and I like wikis and I like cooperation in general, so I'll give my opinion anyway.

I think that YES PYK should leave the wiki *for a while*. PYK has made a lot of good edits, but has also made a few very very poor editing choices (pushing his unusual style, creating page connections out of the blue, refactoring everything has if he is the only one that knows what should be done, recently going on to reverting a page some hundred times! and creating a page just for him to own). Please, take a break, let other people breathe. The wiki existed before you, you do not have a life mission to save it, and the essence of a wiki his cooperation, if you edit too fast for others to keep up, it is no longer a wiki, it is not cooperation and it is your fault that it is not a cooperative effort, if you don't allow others to have the time and room to help. Again, as far as I am concerned, you are welcome, but take a few months break, and then come but slow down.

RLE should also take a break. Don't go for good, but you also do not have to save the wiki single handedly. I am a regular editor on other (some way larger) wikis, and I also lost my temper a couple times. It is not worth it. But if you like it he, please, do come back, after cooling down (I did so already a couple times, elsewhere, and THAT works)

I think the main issue is not PYK nor RLE. I think the very first opinion here - by dbohdan - nailed it. The absence of rules for conflict resolution is the problem here. I don't know of any human endeavour that lasted long in the absence of a minimal set of rules. It may work for a while, while there is few people that implicitly follow the same rules, but as a group grow you need some formal rules or it will collapse. One first step would be it being "captured" by one, or a few, individual that take the lead by force - yes, that what PYK is doing here, even if he actually does not intend to do that. When they get tired of their toy, or die, there is nothing to fill the void.

I say TCL is too important as a language, and this wiki as a major source of help to new and not so new TCLers. I don't know who are the persons with the technical ability to impose measures, but they should be the first to step up and start some more organization. We don't need to become wikipedia (wikipedia is often too much even for the huge wiki it is :-) but we could learn a couple of things from them.

Kevin Walzer Poor Yorick should not feel obligated in any way to pay this page any mind. This is not a fourth-grade clubhouse, folks. A contributor to the wiki cannot be voted off by the community, nor does any single member have the authority to ban the contributor.